Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone

[AlanSam]

RoyBoy - thanks for taking the trouble to educate us. Much appreciaed!

[donovantyler]

I'm late to the party on this one. As a builder, I have switched over to post-catalyzed conversion varnish on my instruments. One of the biggest advantages is the very quick cure time. Nitro has to sit for weeks before it's cured enough to final sand and buff, that's a big slow up in the production schedule for an operation that produces a lot of instruments. It also means you get to that same hardness that puts a crisp edge on the tone WAY faster. Nitro shrinks back and becomes thinner and harder over time. The biggest improvement is in the first few years, at ten years it can sound really good, in 30 years it can be fantastic (depending on the build). Cured finish is buffable in 1-2 days, and as cured as it will ever get in 30 days.

The fact that someone as meticulous as Dana Bourgeoise has made this change tells you something. Nitro is currently 3-4x as expensive as the synthetics (at least in the quantities I buy) but I doubt that's behind the change. When a Bourgoise goes for $5-6k new, they're not going to sweating $10 in finishing materials. His reputation is most important.

RoyBoy,
thank you for wading in here with your knowledge and experience sir.
I no very little about Lutherie or chemistry but maybe you could clear some things up in my mind..and of course it's the end-result that really matters..
Mark Herring said that the new finish is a "water-based laquer.  Very close to nitro." ... that it is thinner than nitro and will "age" like nitro with respect to color and he also said that he heard that it gets thinner over time (like nitro).
Yet Eastman calls it a dual part Urethane.
Is a water-based laquer a "urethane"? I would be surprised if it's water-based, I've not heard of any established builder of repute using water-based lacquer. Generally, it doesn't have the durability required. I would consider water-based lacquer to be about as far from nitrocellulose as you can get. I may be wrong about this, but I haven't heard Dana say anything about the actual content of his new finish, other than it cures really fast.
My concept of a urethane finished guitar brings to mind cheaper guitars with not-so-resonant sound. The newer catalyzed urethanes are easily as hard as cured nitro of many years. The key to resonance is the thinness of the finish film which all quality builders strive for and most productions are getting better at. The old days thick, soft polyester resin finishes are behind us (thankfully)

Mark also said that this is the same finish that Dana uses on his guitars.
Doesn't Bourgeoisie have three different finishes? Gloss, something else and an "antique"
Which one is Eastman using? (rhetorical question) Gloss and satin art the same finish chemically, satin just has a flattening paste of microfine particles suspended in it the break up light transmission through the film. I haven't really studied Bourgoise's finish options. He may be offering a "varnish" finish on certain models. Varnish is a slippery slope though because these days that label can refer to many different compounds. Older fashioned varnishes were softer, more fragile, and have a different tactile feel and tone that some prefer.

I'm guessing the bulk of Dana's guitars get whatever catalyzed finish he's using now. I read a quote from him that he's very satisfied with the final formulation he's settled on. I'm sure it will help him to achieve the scaled up production he's working on.

Interestingly, I just bought a new Martin Custom shop D-18 and it smells like play dough, whereas the Eastman had that sweet maple syrup scent that definitely says "nitro". The manual on my Martin only specs "high quality finish" but also warns about contact with alcohol, bug spray, etc. which says nitro to me (catalyzed finishes are immune to solvents). I queried the finish on the UMGF and someone there assured me that Martin uses nitro on their standard series and up.
Thanks! 

Thanks very much!

[REHII]

Well this has caused quite a stir!!
What we need and should demand is a more definite date if the change in finish type , and a safe way to verify which type of finish we have.
I noticed when I drilled the pilot hole for a strap button that the first few pieces of finish that come off seemed very white and thicker than I thought it should be. If I had only saved them to see what would dissolve them.
I know that when a guitar sounds good then that is what I am looking for, but having just bought a new E6D-TC yesterday I really want to know which finish I have.
Eastman must try their best to give an honest answer to us all! Even if it is “I don’t know”
I did think that my new guitar did not smell like I thought it should, but it has been sitting in a glass case at the dealer since March and I thought the smell had just dissipated.
I don’t think I would return this guitar if it’s not nitro finished, and I couldn’t anyway after installing the strap button. (And removing the pick guard)
If the website spec says nitro then it should be nitro.

Robert.

Ps I have over 100 guitars. After carefully comparing just now I think my new guitar is defiantly not nitro.
Feels like plastic.

[donovantyler]

Well this has caused quite a stir!!
What we need and should demand is a more definite date if the change in finish type , and a safe way to verify which type of finish we have.
I noticed when I drilled the pilot hole for a strap button that the first few pieces of finish that come off seemed very white and thicker than I thought it should be. If I had only saved them to see what would dissolve them.
I know that when a guitar sounds good then that is what I am looking for, but having just bought a new E6D-TC yesterday I really want to know which finish I have.
Eastman must try their best to give an honest answer to us all! Even if it is “I don’t know”
I did think that my new guitar did not smell like I thought it should, but it has been sitting in a glass case at the dealer since March and I thought the smell had just dissipated.
I don’t think I would return this guitar if it’s not nitro finished, and I couldn’t anyway after installing the strap button. (And removing the pick guard)
If the website spec says nitro then it should be nitro.

Robert.

Ps I have over 100 guitars. After carefully comparing just now I think my new guitar is defiantly not nitro.
Feels like plastic.

Yes.. getting mixed and conflicting answers is disappointing then with those answers learning that the guitar you bought, that was said to be nitro is in fact a new finish which is also not known, is down right disappointing and not cool.
Mark Herring, Fretted Instruments Product Specialist at Eastman Strings, told me that he knows that Eastman started using the new finish in December of 2020.  The date on the card that comes with your guitar is added when they receive the guitar in CA from China for setup.  Even though my guitar has a date of early April 2021 he said that there's a 95% chance that it's Truetone.  I too drilled the hole for my strap button and i remember that the initial shavings were hard white looking and yet the guitar has a very sweet smell.  Mark says that many people remark on the smell and yet Royboy says that a sugar sweet smell like maple is a hallmark of nitro.  Also, i got a reply back from Eastman last week saying "Hello Donovan, We received our first batch of Truetone finish guitars on June 1st, so your guitar will still have the old nitrocellulose finish." Mark said that is a canned response sent out by tier 1 customer service staff.
I believe Mark is super knowledgeable, really knows his guitar and finishes and product and the industry.
I do really really like my AC822CE and I like my (1 year old) E10D-TC and it is hard for me to say exactly if or what the difference in the finishes are.  I'd like to hear about a way for me to do that nail polish remover test safely , without damaging my guitar, to finally put this mystery to rest.
If I do have a Truetone guitar.. contrary to what I thought prior to talking with Mark and after reading about Dana and Bourgeois guitars etc... I look favorably on a future Eastman with Truetone finish .

---

[donovantyler]

Well this has caused quite a stir!!
What we need and should demand is a more definite date if the change in finish type , and a safe way to verify which type of finish we have.
I noticed when I drilled the pilot hole for a strap button that the first few pieces of finish that come off seemed very white and thicker than I thought it should be. If I had only saved them to see what would dissolve them.
I know that when a guitar sounds good then that is what I am looking for, but having just bought a new E6D-TC yesterday I really want to know which finish I have.
Eastman must try their best to give an honest answer to us all! Even if it is “I don’t know”
I did think that my new guitar did not smell like I thought it should, but it has been sitting in a glass case at the dealer since March and I thought the smell had just dissipated.
I don’t think I would return this guitar if it’s not nitro finished, and I couldn’t anyway after installing the strap button. (And removing the pick guard)
If the website spec says nitro then it should be nitro.

Robert.

Ps I have over 100 guitars. After carefully comparing just now I think my new guitar is defiantly not nitro.
Feels like plastic.

Mod edit: duplicate posts

[AlanSam]

Donovan - your 'I'd like to hear about a way for me to do that nail polish remover test safely , without damaging my guitar', to finally put this mystery to rest.' You are clearly not not going to let this rest until you get an answer. What about unscrewing one of your strap buttons and removing it? Use masking tape around the area by the button hole, and a large plastic bag with a hole in it taped to the masking tape by the button hole. Then keeping the surface by the button hole horizontal, dip a very fine artists brush or a pin into the clear acetone nail varnish remover (which should be kept well away from the guitar) just breaking the surface and then on the guitar by the button hole. Move a cloth to the pin or brush and wrap it round the pin/brush and move out of reach of your guitar. Do not start scrubbing the surface - it should be evident pretty quickly (a few seconds - say 30 seconds max) if the surface dissolves. Then wipe it clean without leaving the footprint of the button. Screw the strap button back in before doing anything else to cover up any residual acetone 
Apart from this I am at a loss to offer any suggestion. I have never done this personally - this is just what I've gleaned from a number of sites, and what I would do faced with this situation and a burning desire to sort it out. BUT if you are going to do this plan it out, and do a dry run - do not 'wing' it.
Or just go with Mark Herring's 95% probability estimate - he seems like an honest dude doing his best in a difficult situation.

[Jklotz]

Donovan - your 'I'd like to hear about a way for me to do that nail polish remover test safely , without damaging my guitar', to finally put this mystery to rest.' You are clearly not not going to let this rest until you get an answer. What about unscrewing one of your strap buttons and removing it? Use masking tape around the area by the button hole, and a large plastic bag with a hole in it taped to the masking tape by the button hole. Then keeping the surface by the button hole horizontal, dip a very fine artists brush or a pin into the clear acetone nail varnish remover (which should be kept well away from the guitar) just breaking the surface and then on the guitar by the button hole. Move a cloth to the pin and wrap it round the pin/brush and move out of reach of your guitar. Do not start scrubbing the surface - it should be evident pretty quickly (a few seconds - say 30 seconds max) if the surface dissolves. Then wipe it clean without leaving the footprint of the button. Screw the strap button back in before doing anything else. 
Apart from this I am at a loss to offer any suggestion. I have never done this personally - this is just what I've gleaned from a number of sites, and what I would do faced with this situation and a burning desire to sort it out. BUT if you are going to do this plan it out, and do a dry run - do not 'wing' it.
Or just go with Mark Herring's 95% estimate - he seems like an honest dude doing his best in a difficult situation.

Jeez, I dunno man. I wouln't take anything harmful to any of my guitars just to satisfy my curiosity. If it were mine, I'd just play it and enjoy it for what it is.

[Pura Vida]

James, 100%.

I returned home, picked up my E6D-TC (Alpine), which is likely Trutone.  I gave it a sniff... my sense of smell is bad, so it smells like an acoustic guitar (nothing unique; keep in mind, my guitars sit out on stands, so any smells may have faded already).  Aside from an email to Eastman, I'm going to assume it has the new finish and move on.  If I ever sell it, I don't expect the average buyer to know or care to ask, and in the meantime, as long as I'm happy with the sound and looks, it's a non-issue for me.

[donovantyler]

Donovan - your 'I'd like to hear about a way for me to do that nail polish remover test safely , without damaging my guitar', to finally put this mystery to rest.' You are clearly not not going to let this rest until you get an answer. What about unscrewing one of your strap buttons and removing it? Use masking tape around the area by the button hole, and a large plastic bag with a hole in it taped to the masking tape by the button hole. Then keeping the surface by the button hole horizontal, dip a very fine artists brush or a pin into the clear acetone nail varnish remover (which should be kept well away from the guitar) just breaking the surface and then on the guitar by the button hole. Move a cloth to the pin or brush and wrap it round the pin/brush and move out of reach of your guitar. Do not start scrubbing the surface - it should be evident pretty quickly (a few seconds - say 30 seconds max) if the surface dissolves. Then wipe it clean without leaving the footprint of the button. Screw the strap button back in before doing anything else to cover up any residual acetone 
Apart from this I am at a loss to offer any suggestion. I have never done this personally - this is just what I've gleaned from a number of sites, and what I would do faced with this situation and a burning desire to sort it out. BUT if you are going to do this plan it out, and do a dry run - do not 'wing' it.
Or just go with Mark Herring's 95% probability estimate - he seems like an honest dude doing his best in a difficult situation.

yeah.. Thanks Sam. I can let it go.  I thought this was a very simple thing... not so! hehe.
(p.s. I do believe Mark)

[REHII]

I just got this from Eastman “[email protected]” specifically.


“ I am glad to hear you are enjoying your Eastman guitars! The switch to our new Truetone finish was on June 1st, so your guitar will have the old nitrocellulose finish. I have provide our press release for the Truetone finish below. I am not aware of a card for our Swiss alpine models, as they are technically not a new model and we did not produce a limited edition card for them. As for the Mahogany, we do use Khaya on this model.”

So this is telling me June 1, 2021 is the start date for “True Tone” finish.
I also asked what species of mahogany is used on E6D-TC.
I am kinda disappointed in the answer being “Khaya”
I was really thinking Eastman was using “real” mahogany, Sweetenia Macrophyllia”.
Well I guess it still sounds pretty good.
Here is the info they sent about “trutone” finish
"It is with this mission in mind that we are excited to share with you the creation of a superior and environmentally friendly finish called Truetone. Just as thin and great sounding as our previous nitrocellulose finish, this new topcoat offers maximum protection for the fretted instrument while consciously minimizing the footprint it leaves on our planet.

The most difficult challenge we faced when developing this new finish was finding the delicate balance between hardness and flexibility that didn't compromise the resonance or signature tone that makes an Eastman. By implementing a two part modified urethane topcoat we emerged with Truetone - a finish that never sacrifices the sound of tradition.

Effective immediately, we now offer Truetone on all Eastman gloss and satin finished acoustics, electrics, and mandolins, completing our new lineup of signature finishes:
• Truetone Satin
• Truetone Vintage Gloss
• Truetone Gloss
• Antique Varnish"

Thank you,
Eastman Guitars



Robert.