HELP! Troubleshooting my E10D-TC.

[cjhorne]

I use the Music Nomad Soundhole Humidifier (distilled water) along with a small hygrometer in each hard case.  This humidifier does a good job of keeping the case humidity between 45% & 55%.  Personally, there is no way I would go without a humidifier in the winter months. It is important to ensure the humidity is being properly maintained.

It isn't just the humidifier manufacturers who say the humidity must be maintained.  It is the instrument manufacturers as well:

Taylor - https://www.taylorguitars.com/support/ma...humidifier
          - https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/defa...difier.pdf

Eastman - https://www.eastmanstrings.com/care-and-cleaning

Breedlove - https://breedlovemusic.com/acoustic-guit...inter-long

Fender - https://www.fender.com/articles/maintena...0Farenheit.

Martin - https://martinguitar.com/on/demandware.s...-guide.pdf


CJ

[Pura Vida]

Quite the discussion, and I appreciate everyone keeping it civil, yet spirited.  I'm aligned with the others (and the majority of guitar makers, as CJ points out in the previous post) that the ideal range is 40-50%, although I personally think the safe range can go further on either side, as long as there is consistency.

I think that Sundance and the others could agree that consistency is important, even if we aren't aligned on the safe range and disagree on never needing to humidify guitars.  As Rod mentions, some climates drive extremely high or low humidity, so additional controls are required to maintain a safe level.  I live in a mild climate, but have both humidifiers and dehumidifiers in my house (my guitars are nearly all left outside of their cases) to keep RH within a desired range.

Suggestion: perhaps we should create a separate thread to discuss RH, so we don't continue to derail Joshua's thread, although this discussion has direct relevance to what he's experiencing.

[AlanSam]

I agree with PV that we shouldn't get too anxious about RH values which fall a little either side of the 'safe' range. And also that RH stability is important in terms of minimising the stresses brought about by the expansion and contraction of the guitar's wood, what might be called the 'concertina effect'.

[sleigh]

Sundance: A couple quick responses...

"After a guitar is manufactured PROPERLY... the guitar can not get any dryer."  I understand your logic there, but how does one absolutely know that a company or luthier completely dried out every last piece of wood used in the construction of the guitar you've bought and didn't use a water-based glue anywhere building it? Even if they say that's the case, how do you know they're not mistaken or lying or just repeating what they've been told? And if they haven't completely dried out the woods and/or you can't verify that, then you don't know if the guitar needs humidification or not to remain in the state in which you bought it when you fell in love with the sound and construction of the instrument.

In that case, I'd argue that maintaining a good range of humidity for the guitar is imperative if you don't want to risk damage.

I don't know where you live or what the conditions are in your house, but here in the midwest—in a house with dry radiator heat and no central air—outside humidity ranges from 90% in the humid, hot summers to 10% in the cold of winter. In winter I do humidify the cases in which the guitars live because of that—which only seems prudent to me. And, like you, (with the exception of that Ovation I referenced earlier, where the only wood in the guitar was the top and the neck) I've never had any issue with my guitars, either. 

May it stay that way for both of us!

[sundance]

Sundance: said  "Idea humidity to me is 30 to 50 percent. I have keep my instruments at this rate for years."

How do you keep the humidity between 30 and 50 percent?  Do you use a room/house humidifier?  Or, does the ambient humidity where you live never go outside of these parameters?  If you live in such an environment, possibly you don't need to ever humidify your guitars.

I live in Northern Alberta, and when the temperatures go well below -25C or -30C (-13F to -22F) for days on end, the humidity in the house drops well below 30%.  Solid wood guitars can, and do, crack in this low humidity environment.  Putting the humidipaks in the guitar and case, keeps the humidity of the guitar and case at a much higher level than the ambient humidity.  Even though the humidipaks that I use are rated at 49%, the actual guitar and case humidity is usually 40 to 45%.  

Rod

Below 30 percent is usually very uncomfortable to tolerate for us. I use a dehumidifier to maintain no greater than 45 percent ambient humidity where I store my instruments. I do not have to humidify. I keep some in the case but most of them out of the case. Right now, I show it is 37 percent humidity and my instruments sound wonderful. No issues. 

In your scenario, it is not going to hurt to humidify but I would never do that inside of the instrument. Never. Just raise your room humidity. To each his own. I'm just sharing my knowledge and experience.

Room humidity and instrument humidity are two different things. Some people claim that all woods have the same absorbing rate but I know that isn't true. Wood naturally DRIES after it is cut. Once life leaves a tree, it starts losing moisture. Many people dry wood with fans or natural air flow. It is natural for wood to dry. Also, wood doesn't immediately absorb moisture when exposed to higher humidity. It takes time. Wood humidity levels are usually lower than its surrounding environment. You really need a very expensive wood moisture meter to accurately determine the actually moisture content of wood. Especially is the wood is more than an inch thick. 

If you put any finish over wood that is over 30 percent moisture content, you can expect that moisture to try to escape. It will usually create white spots or the finish will eventually become unadhered to the surface. There is a reason that it is very hard to find solid wood furniture anymore. It takes a lot of experience to know how to deal with thick pieces of wood in construction of furniture. Companies just refuse to take the time to season wood. Cutting large blocks of wood into small pieces for a wood instrument takes years of planning. They have to cut it and let it dry. Even if the exterior reads normal. My bet is.... that large manufacturers of instruments may not be drying them properly to begin with. In such a case, drying would potentially be bad for an instrument.

---

Quite the discussion, and I appreciate everyone keeping it civil, yet spirited.  I'm aligned with the others (and the majority of guitar makers, as CJ points out in the previous post) that the ideal range is 40-50%, although I personally think the safe range can go further on either side, as long as there is consistency.

I think that Sundance and the others could agree that consistency is important, even if we aren't aligned on the safe range and disagree on never needing to humidify guitars.  As Rod mentions, some climates drive extremely high or low humidity, so additional controls are required to maintain a safe level.  I live in a mild climate, but have both humidifiers and dehumidifiers in my house (my guitars are nearly all left outside of their cases) to keep RH within a desired range.

Suggestion: perhaps we should create a separate thread to discuss RH, so we don't continue to derail Joshua's thread, although this discussion has direct relevance to what he's experiencing.

Sounds good to me. Can you split it out?

---

I use the Music Nomad Soundhole Humidifier (distilled water) along with a small hygrometer in each hard case.  This humidifier does a good job of keeping the case humidity between 45% & 55%.  Personally, there is no way I would go without a humidifier in the winter months. It is important to ensure the humidity is being properly maintained.

It isn't just the humidifier manufacturers who say the humidity must be maintained.  It is the instrument manufacturers as well:

Taylor - https://www.taylorguitars.com/support/ma...humidifier
          - https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/defa...difier.pdf

Eastman - https://www.eastmanstrings.com/care-and-cleaning

Breedlove - https://breedlovemusic.com/acoustic-guit...inter-long

Fender - https://www.fender.com/articles/maintena...0Farenheit.

Martin - https://martinguitar.com/on/demandware.s...-guide.pdf


CJ

I know that some manufactures do this. I am skeptical of their commitment to potential damage to instruments from humidifiers. Do you know if they will guarantee to repair a instrument that shows the effects of high humidity such as finish checking and swollen braces? They may recommend them but I seriously doubt they will take responsibility for any issues they will introduce. Have you see any of these manufacturers warranty finish checking and expanding braces?

There is perfect example of this in the car industry. Most car manufactures now insist that you do not have to change your oil for at least 10,000 miles. There is no way I believe that the long term reliability of a car will benefit from 10,000 mile oil changes. There is plenty of real world evidence that slug and carbon from 10,000 mile interval oil changes is causing low tension piston rings to become stuck. When that happens, the car will start using oil and pollute the atmosphere. It is happening all the time now since the introduction of supposedly "synthetic" low weight oils were introduced. Toyota was the only manufacturer to warranty some of these issues. They have stopped. A recommendation is only as good as being willing to stand behind the consequences of that recommendation. I'm skeptical that will happen. 

I have new Eastman I just bought. Love it. It is what brought me here. I have a Tacoma DR55 that is one of the best overall sounding guitars I have ever heard. I've had it in 30 to 45 percent humidity its entire life. Most of it hanging in my guitar area. The finish still looks great. How many Tacoma's have you seen that do?

---

Sundance: A couple quick responses...

"After a guitar is manufactured PROPERLY... the guitar can not get any dryer."  I understand your logic there, but how does one absolutely know that a company or luthier completely dried out every last piece of wood used in the construction of the guitar you've bought and didn't use a water-based glue anywhere building it? Even if they say that's the case, how do you know they're not mistaken or lying or just repeating what they've been told? And if they haven't completely dried out the woods and/or you can't verify that, then you don't know if the guitar needs humidification or not to remain in the state in which you bought it when you fell in love with the sound and construction of the instrument.

In that case, I'd argue that maintaining a good range of humidity for the guitar is imperative if you don't want to risk damage.

I don't know where you live or what the conditions are in your house, but here in the midwest—in a house with dry radiator heat and no central air—outside humidity ranges from 90% in the humid, hot summers to 10% in the cold of winter. In winter I do humidify the cases in which the guitars live because of that—which only seems prudent to me. And, like you, (with the exception of that Ovation I referenced earlier, where the only wood in the guitar was the top and the neck) I've never had any issue with my guitars, either. 

May it stay that way for both of us!

I agree with most of what you said. It is good to have these types of conversations. Ultimately, I believe that manufacturers don't dry their neck/fretboard stock properly. Body woods are probably okay. Which is why I error on the low side. Small variations in neck stock is fine. Though I don't personally have any issues. Keep the fretboard oiled to help keep out moisture. The neck is sealed for the most part on every side. I know where there is a 65ish D-35 that hasn't been a case for 30 years. It is used all the time and has never been in a controlled humidified environment. Not one single repair. I've changed the strings on it several times for the owner. I don't personally like Brazilian rosewood guitars. Too much money for a usually......lesser sound to me. Some are wonderful but many are just duds. It is in perfect shape for what it is. This will be my last response here. I'll wait for the thread or we can start one and copy some of the posts over. Hope I haven't been too difficult for you. Thanks

[nostatic]

Sundance: said  "Idea humidity to me is 30 to 50 percent. I have keep my instruments at this rate for years."

How do you keep the humidity between 30 and 50 percent?  Do you use a room/house humidifier?  Or, does the ambient humidity where you live never go outside of these parameters?  If you live in such an environment, possibly you don't need to ever humidify your guitars.

Rod

Blessed to live in an area with reasonable humidity year round (central coast of CA). I have a monitor in my home studio, and over the last year it has ranged from 30-59%, temp from 66-87F. I leave all my instruments out in the room either hanging from a wall hanger (solid body) or on a multi-stand. Only time they see a case is going to a gig (though I try to use gig bag instead - depends on the gig).