HELP! Troubleshooting my E10D-TC.

[Pura Vida]

Joshua, I'd recommend giving the guitar some time to re-acclimate before making any further changes that may need to be reverted.  Hope it settles back to where it was over time.

[jphenderson91]

Thanks all for the advice. The guitar was playing good today and sounding terrific but I can tell there is still some belly, mostly behind the low E and A strings. I am going to let the guitar set for a week or more before I decide on taking it to a guitar tech. Bellying looks a lot better than even a day ago.

[TomC]

Josh - Have you checked the humidity levels in the case without the guitar or sound hole humidifier? Is it even possible for a case to become over humidified? Just wondering. I have Govee Hygrometers and use Humidipacks. With or without the guitars, the cases maintain in the high 40s to low 50s RH. 

Nice to hear that things are starting to settle back down.

[AlanSam]

Tom - why would it not be possible for a case to become over-humidified if you have a humidipak or similar in it, or store it in an over-humidified room? Or am I missing the point (well possible)?

[TomC]

Tom - why would it not be possible for a case to become over-humidified if you have a humidipak or similar in it, or store it in an over-humidified room? Or am I missing the point (well possible)?

Alan
That's my question. In my limited experience I have had issues with cases needing "conditioning" because they were very dry. I had some Humidipaks @ 65% that I used to raise the RH of the case. Afterwards I would use the 49% packs. The question I have is how could it become over humified? I have never experienced that.
Tom

[sundance]

Sundance: "Never humidify your instruments" is counter to every piece of advice I've heard on the care of acoustic guitars (as cjhrone also noted). Having owned several acoustics over the years, I've witnessed them reacting to changing humidity levels, both high and low (though yes, you can over-humidify them and cause problems.) I'd be curious as to where you heard this and who said it, and whether there's corroborating evidence.

I had an Ovation acoustic that was super-sensitive to change in humidity. When humidity was low, the strings would buzz against the frets or (well up the neck) not play at all. When humidity was high, the strings would sit well off the neck and be hard to play.

To be clear. This is complicated issue. 

Generally speaking.... people love to sell humidifiers. They make people money. Doesn't matter if they are useful or not. I'll give an example from fishing of how sells are made....

I heard a seasoned old fisherman say once, that white, green and black colored baits catch fish. All other colors, catch fisherman. Same is true for humidifiers. A humidifier ruined this person's guitar for nothing. You can say what you want to say. I know.......once wood is stretched by humidity and pressure, it will never go back to the exact dimensions it was after it was cut. Never. It might get better but it will not return to exactly what it was. There is a reason that wood is dried before it is used in making acoustic instrument. It put in a better state to cut and manufactured into an instrument. They do not HUMIDIFY wood in a kiln. 

After a guitar is manufactured PROPERLY... the guitar can not get any dryer. I repeat, it can not get any dryer. If the instrument is in this state of being as dry as necessary to maintain an accurate manufacturing process, then why would you EVER humidify that instrument? Simple question I hope you can answer.

The reason some instruments show signs of drying is because they were not dried proper to start with. The best luthiers take the time to dry their woods. All woods. The neck and fingerboard are the hardest to dry and maintain because they are cut from huge blocks of wood and tend to move after cutting. Good luthiers will account for this and allow time for that to happen. Also, most manufacturers tend to use WATER based glues in gluing necks. If they use too much in the fretboard, it will shrink over time as the wood dries. Again. They should dry the wood properly. They should give plenty of time for wood to acclimate after being cut. They should use as little water based glue as possible. If they do these things, there is never a reason to humidify an instrument. It is VERY important to keep instruments away from water/humidity. Even so, changes in humidity take more time to affect an instrument that most people realize. Most problem come from too much humidity that stretches joints and wood fibers. That damage is done. Drying it will naturally cause it to potentially crack.... However, again.... this was caused by humidity. So I repeat my recommendation. Don't humidify your instrument. Idea humidity to me is 30 to 50 percent. I have keep my instruments at this rate for years. No issues. If I ever do, I will admit I was wrong. 

As to wood absorbing moisture. it is a process that takes time. There are oils in most woods. Oils and resins. Sinker Mahogany are old logs that have been underwater for a very long time. Most wood floats. It depends on density and weight. Sinker tonewoods come from the water. They are slowly dried at specific heat and it takes time. Wood moves slowly. If you shut up a instrument in a case with water, what do you think is going to happen over time? 

So that is part of my "rant". Thank you for considering my comments.

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Tom - why would it not be possible for a case to become over-humidified if you have a humidipak or similar in it, or store it in an over-humidified room? Or am I missing the point (well possible)?

Alan
That's my question. In my limited experience I have had issues with cases needing "conditioning" because they were very dry. I had some Humidipaks @ 65% that I used to raise the RH of the case. Afterwards I would use the 49% packs. The question I have is how could it become over humified? I have never experienced that.
Tom 

I am skeptical of how these "pack" work. How can they guarantee a specific humidity condition? They can't account for every possible scenario. There are too many variables for them to do that. They can't tell what the instrument was to begin with. I personally believe they are overstating the usefulness of such things with bogus claims of impact of their product.

---

I can't comment on the humidity other than I have heard my luthier say that 30% is actually okay for a guitar (little dry but not bad) whereas 15 or 20 can start being dangerously close to cracking.

Also, I noticed today that my E1SS has some belly at the bridge as well. The saddle is somewhat tall and the action is still good on the E1SS (the action doesn't seem to have move since I got it a few months ago) which makes me wonder if a little belly is a little common with Eastmans and if it affects the playability of the guitar all that much. .

I lowered the string tension and saddle a little on the E10D-TC and it is playing much better. I have had the guitar out of the case for 24 hours now and the belly has went away some. If the action gets any lower I will have to to shim the saddle and raise it again. All of this to say the belly bulge (though it's there) doesn't seem to affect the playability right now on either guitar. Both guitars still have fairly tall saddles, low action and light strings.

I think I am going to still wait another couple weeks and monitor the guitar (and let it dry out) and then send it to my Eastman dealer to have their tech check the belly out to make sure it's not a loose brace or something else.

30 percent is good. Once you get below 30 percent humidity in a room, you can tell it. "Static" charges will increase. You can "feel it" in the air. You skin will start to get dry. I worked with wood for many years and ran humidity controlled environments. For example, data centers humidify their environment. If the humidity gets below 30 percent, the fans and electronic in those environment can cause a static discharge that will destroy equipment.

[AlanSam]

Sundance - if 30% RH works for you - that's fine. From my extensive reading on this subject I would suggest that most acoustic guitars kept permanently at a 30% RH would over time suffer some damage as a direct result of this. The widely, almost universally accepted safe range is 45% to 55% RH, with 50% RH optimal. I hope your guitars continue to function well, good luck!

* apologies. I originally posted the recommended RH range as 40% - 50%, it should have been 45% - 55% (and yes I am cracking up!) 

[TomC]

I am skeptical of how these "pack" work. How can they guarantee a specific humidity condition? They can't account for every possible scenario. There are too many variables for them to do that. They can't tell what the instrument was to begin with. I personally believe they are overstating the usefulness of such things with bogus claims of impact of their product.

Sundance
How the work is by releasing moisture if the RH is below the design range of the package and the opposite is true if above. They are much better at releasing moisture than absorbing. How well they work? I have a Govee Hygrometer in each one of my cases (6) and one in my office/guitar room. They connect to my phone via BT and I can download the data. It allows me to check the RH in each case without having to open them. I have alarms set for RH <40%. Invariably when this happens the pouches no longer feel gel like but are crunchy/crystals. I can either replace or recharge the packets. Boveda doesn't recommend recharging them. How they work - I probably can't fully explain the mechanism. Do they work? - In my experience very much so. I even calibrate the hygrometers once a year to verify they are fairly accurate. 

JPH - sorry for hijacking your thread. 
Tom

[sundance]

Sundance - if 30% RH works for you - that's fine. From my extensive reading on this subject I would suggest that most acoustic guitars kept permanently at a 30% RH would over time suffer some damage as a direct result of this. The widely, almost universally accepted safe range is 40% to 50% RH, with 45% RH optimal. I hope your guitars continue to function well, good luck!

.

If you read something that is wrong many times, then that doesn't make what you read true. In fact, often times, the truth is oppressed. Are you reading information from humidifier manufactures?

Acoustic guitars are not manufactured with wood at 50 percent moisture content. That is a fact. If they are, then they are manufactured wrong. 

Can you point out the flaws in my logic? I'm used reason and experience but lets just stick with reason for a moment. 

What is specific wrong with my reasoning? If wood is manufactured at low humidity levels, just how can humidifying an instrument help? 

Cycling between wet and dry is what causes the issue. If you don't allow your wood to exceed 50 percent humidity. You should be fine. If you allow it to exceed 50 percent humidity, then you can't blame drying. Humidifying introduced the issue. 

There is no reason to add a humidifying device to a guitar. This issue proves that you can serious damage an instrument doing so. He was told to do this. He was told wrong and it hurt this instrument.

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I am skeptical of how these "pack" work. How can they guarantee a specific humidity condition? They can't account for every possible scenario. There are too many variables for them to do that. They can't tell what the instrument was to begin with. I personally believe they are overstating the usefulness of such things with bogus claims of impact of their product.

Sundance
How the work is by releasing moisture if the RH is below the design range of the package and the opposite is true if above. They are much better at releasing moisture than absorbing. How well they work? I have a Govee Hygrometer in each one of my cases (6) and one in my office/guitar room. They connect to my phone via BT and I can download the data. It allows me to check the RH in each case without having to open them. I have alarms set for RH <40%. Invariably when this happens the pouches no longer feel gel like but are crunchy/crystals. I can either replace or recharge the packets. Boveda doesn't recommend recharging them. How they work - I probably can't fully explain the mechanism. Do they work? - In my experience very much so. I even calibrate the hygrometers once a year to verify they are fairly accurate. 

JPH - sorry for hijacking your thread. 
Tom

This is an important topic. I feel sorry that this person actually believed what he was told. He followed what he was told and it hurt his guitar. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative but you have an alarm system in your instruments. It is good that you have an alarm system. However, too many times, these devices introduce too much humidity and create the problem. If you've already saturated your wood with humidity, you wouldn't want it to get dry. Humidity can affect the sound of an instrument. Humidity causes wood to expand and puts stress and tension in an instrument. I believe it is obvious that expansion can cause instruments to not sound as good. It will limit vibration. 

I believe it is clear that humidity isn't going to help this guitar......

[Guzzi Fan]

Sundance: said  "Idea humidity to me is 30 to 50 percent. I have keep my instruments at this rate for years."

How do you keep the humidity between 30 and 50 percent?  Do you use a room/house humidifier?  Or, does the ambient humidity where you live never go outside of these parameters?  If you live in such an environment, possibly you don't need to ever humidify your guitars.

I live in Northern Alberta, and when the temperatures go well below -25C or -30C (-13F to -22F) for days on end, the humidity in the house drops well below 30%.  Solid wood guitars can, and do, crack in this low humidity environment.  Putting the humidipaks in the guitar and case, keeps the humidity of the guitar and case at a much higher level than the ambient humidity.  Even though the humidipaks that I use are rated at 49%, the actual guitar and case humidity is usually 40 to 45%.  

Rod