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+--- Thread: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone (/Thread-Eastman-stops-using-Nitro-switches-to-Truetone)
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - RoyBoy - 07-16-2021
I'm late to the party on this one. As a builder, I have switched over to post-catalyzed conversion varnish on my instruments. One of the biggest advantages is the very quick cure time. Nitro has to sit for weeks before it's cured enough to final sand and buff, that's a big slow up in the production schedule for an operation that produces a lot of instruments. It also means you get to that same hardness that puts a crisp edge on the tone WAY faster. Nitro shrinks back and becomes thinner and harder over time. The biggest improvement is in the first few years, at ten years it can sound really good, in 30 years it can be fantastic (depending on the build). Cured finish is buffable in 1-2 days, and as cured as it will ever get in 30 days.
The fact that someone as meticulous as Dana Bourgeoise has made this change tells you something. Nitro is currently 3-4x as expensive as the synthetics (at least in the quantities I buy) but I doubt that's behind the change. When a Bourgoise goes for $5-6k new, they're not going to sweating $10 in finishing materials. His reputation is most important.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - AlanSam - 07-16-2021
Roy Boy - re your 'I just traded in my year old E20D-TC with a beautiful cooked adi top. For trade I got 1/2 what I paid for it so that they could hopefully get $1100 for it. Recent year Martins are currently going for near the same price as current new ones.' Question - given that Martins are quite a bit more expensive than Eastmans, do you think you would lose less money trading a recently purchased Martin in than you did with your E20D-TC? I am genuinely interested.
And I do accept your point about Dana Bourgeois not being one to 'sell out' in terms of quality. As for cost not being a factor in Eastman's shift from Nitro to Truetone - I would observe that not every majority share holder is a luthier of repute.
I wonder about the impact of Truetone on resale prices, but we will have to wait and see. I suspect Nitro Eastmans will become more sought after (justifiably or not) than those finished in Truetone. But I do accept the problematic nature of differentiating between recently made Eastmans. Not everyone will want to dab a little acetone on the heel of their guitar - pinprick sized or otherwise. Is there any other way to identify which is which? Eastman's pronouncements are clearly not worth a carat.
p.s. great to have an actual Luthier onboard.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - sleigh - 07-16-2021
The use of Nitro vs. another finish isn't a deal-killer to me personally if the new finish sounds comparable and is more durable/better environmentally/more cost effective. What bothers me is the lack of clear communication from Eastman as to the changes and when (and why) they occurred. I have to wonder if that's not a cultural issue.
All I know for certain is that I have four excellent guitars from Eastman that I don't see myself getting rid of anytime soon. And if one day I have the disposable income for another guitar (like maybe an AC622CE?), I'll still look at Eastman (but will probably also check out other brands as well.)
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - pszy22 - 07-16-2021
Personally, my antennae go up any time I hear the phrase - just as good as (or tastes just like).
Unless there is some compelling reason or benefit to me, I usually prefer the original. Many of the discussions around Truetone begin with - it is just as good as nitro because ...
Hey, this tofu bacon tastes just like the real thing.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - AlanSam - 07-16-2021
Steve - re your 'I have to wonder if that's not a cultural issue.': I thought the same thing. Maybe a little cultural tone deafness in the area of transparency.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - donovantyler - 07-16-2021
(07-16-2021, 05:53 AM)RoyBoy Wrote: I'm late to the party on this one. As a builder, I have switched over to post-catalyzed conversion varnish on my instruments. One of the biggest advantages is the very quick cure time. Nitro has to sit for weeks before it's cured enough to final sand and buff, that's a big slow up in the production schedule for an operation that produces a lot of instruments. It also means you get to that same hardness that puts a crisp edge on the tone WAY faster. Nitro shrinks back and becomes thinner and harder over time. The biggest improvement is in the first few years, at ten years it can sound really good, in 30 years it can be fantastic (depending on the build). Cured finish is buffable in 1-2 days, and as cured as it will ever get in 30 days.
The fact that someone as meticulous as Dana Bourgeoise has made this change tells you something. Nitro is currently 3-4x as expensive as the synthetics (at least in the quantities I buy) but I doubt that's behind the change. When a Bourgoise goes for $5-6k new, they're not going to sweating $10 in finishing materials. His reputation is most important.
RoyBoy,
thank you for wading in here with your knowledge and experience sir.
I know very little about Lutherie or chemistry but maybe you could clear some things up in my mind..and of course it's the end-result that really matters..
Mark Herring said that the new finish is a "water-based laquer. Very close to nitro." ... that it is thinner than nitro and will "age" like nitro with respect to color and he also said that he heard that it gets thinner over time (like nitro).
Yet Eastman calls it a dual part Urethane.
Is a water-based laquer a "urethane"?
My concept of a urethane finished guitar brings to mind cheaper guitars with not-so-resonant sound.
Mark also said that this is the same finish that Dana uses on his guitars.
Doesn't Bourgeoisie have three different finishes? Gloss, something else and an "antique"
Which one is Eastman using? (rhetorical question)
Thanks!
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - Jklotz - 07-16-2021
FWIW, I've worked a little bit with nitro finishes in the past, and I believe the nitro Eastman has been using already has some plasticizer mixed in. If it didn't, they'd be dealing with a lot more warranty issues. For that reason, the new finish might feel pretty similar.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - sleigh - 07-16-2021
Here's an interesting article on the history of acoustic instruments finishes from Acoustic Music.org: https://acousticmusic.org/research/guitar-information/guitar-finishes/ -- there is a short paragraph on water-based lacquers. Actually, on reading this, it would seem that the ideal guitar finish might be shellac.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - Meathead - 07-16-2021
RoyBoy - it's great to have you on this forum as a luthier! I know a few others have have some building experience as well, and I for one love learning from you folks.. this is a fascinating discussion.
RE: Eastman stops using Nitro switches to Truetone - RoyBoy - 07-17-2021
(07-16-2021, 07:53 AM)donovantyler Wrote:(07-16-2021, 05:53 AM)RoyBoy Wrote: I'm late to the party on this one. As a builder, I have switched over to post-catalyzed conversion varnish on my instruments. One of the biggest advantages is the very quick cure time. Nitro has to sit for weeks before it's cured enough to final sand and buff, that's a big slow up in the production schedule for an operation that produces a lot of instruments. It also means you get to that same hardness that puts a crisp edge on the tone WAY faster. Nitro shrinks back and becomes thinner and harder over time. The biggest improvement is in the first few years, at ten years it can sound really good, in 30 years it can be fantastic (depending on the build). Cured finish is buffable in 1-2 days, and as cured as it will ever get in 30 days.
The fact that someone as meticulous as Dana Bourgeoise has made this change tells you something. Nitro is currently 3-4x as expensive as the synthetics (at least in the quantities I buy) but I doubt that's behind the change. When a Bourgoise goes for $5-6k new, they're not going to sweating $10 in finishing materials. His reputation is most important.
RoyBoy,
thank you for wading in here with your knowledge and experience sir.
I no very little about Lutherie or chemistry but maybe you could clear some things up in my mind..and of course it's the end-result that really matters..
Mark Herring said that the new finish is a "water-based laquer. Very close to nitro." ... that it is thinner than nitro and will "age" like nitro with respect to color and he also said that he heard that it gets thinner over time (like nitro).
Yet Eastman calls it a dual part Urethane.
Is a water-based laquer a "urethane"? I would be surprised if it's water-based, I've not heard of any established builder of repute using water-based lacquer. Generally, it doesn't have the durability required. I would consider water-based lacquer to be about as far from nitrocellulose as you can get. I may be wrong about this, but I haven't heard Dana say anything about the actual content of his new finish, other than it cures really fast.
My concept of a urethane finished guitar brings to mind cheaper guitars with not-so-resonant sound. The newer catalyzed urethanes are easily as hard as cured nitro of many years. The key to resonance is the thinness of the finish film which all quality builders strive for and most productions are getting better at. The old days thick, soft polyester resin finishes are behind us (thankfully)
Mark also said that this is the same finish that Dana uses on his guitars.
Doesn't Bourgeoisie have three different finishes? Gloss, something else and an "antique"
Which one is Eastman using? (rhetorical question) Gloss and satin art the same finish chemically, satin just has a flattening paste of microfine particles suspended in it the break up light transmission through the film. I haven't really studied Bourgoise's finish options. He may be offering a "varnish" finish on certain models. Varnish is a slippery slope though because these days that label can refer to many different compounds. Older fashioned varnishes were softer, more fragile, and have a different tactile feel and tone that some prefer.
I'm guessing the bulk of Dana's guitars get whatever catalyzed finish he's using now. I read a quote from him that he's very satisfied with the final formulation he's settled on. I'm sure it will help him to achieve the scaled up production he's working on.
Interestingly, I just bought a new Martin Custom shop D-18 and it smells like play dough, whereas the Eastman had that sweet maple syrup scent that definitely says "nitro". The manual on my Martin only specs "high quality finish" but also warns about contact with alcohol, bug spray, etc. which says nitro to me (catalyzed finishes are immune to solvents). I queried the finish on the UMGF and someone there assured me that Martin uses nitro on their standard series and up.
Thanks!